At The Cash: Paul Vigna explains “What’s Cash?” (August 6, 2025)
It’s a driving consider our lives. However how usually have you considered these little inexperienced items of paper in your pockets? Is cash actual, or just a collective delusion?
Full transcript beneath.
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About this week’s visitor:
Paul Vigna is a reporter for The Wall Road Journal and has been a journalist for greater than 25 years, as a reporter, editor, and photographer. He at present covers the cryptocurrency sector, together with bitcoin, different digital currencies, and blockchain-related applied sciences. He’s the creator of “The Almightier: How Cash Grew to become God, Greed Grew to become Advantage, and Debt Grew to become Sin.”
For more information, see:
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TRANSCRIPT:
Cash. It’s a driving consider our lives. However how usually have you considered these little inexperienced items of paper in your pockets and the concept that created it, or the digital zeros and ones in our banks and brokerage accounts that signify your cash? Is it actual or is cash merely a collective delusion?
I’m Barry Ritholtz and on in the present day’s version of On the Cash, we’re gonna chat in regards to the idea of what precisely cash is to assist us unpack all of this and what it means to you. Let’s usher in Paul Vigna of the Wall Road Journal. He’s revealed quite a few books on cash crypto, his newest e-book, “The Almightier, how Cash Grew to become God, greed Grew to become Advantage and Debt Grew to become Sin.”
Barry Ritholtz: Paul, let’s begin with the fundamentals. You outline cash as a perception system. Clarify what which means.
Paul Vigna: Positive, briefly. So, I imply, that is, look, that is one thing that, that I by no means thought of for almost all of my life. To me, cash was simply what was in my pockets, what was in my checking account. I might use it, I might purchase issues. I didn’t fear about what it was, it, it wasn’t essential to me. That modified during the last 10 years or so. And I began considering to my, you understand, I began enthusiastic about this query, what’s cash?
And that despatched me down this rabbit gap. And the place I’ve, the place I’ve come out on that’s that cash isn’t an actual factor. You, you, you maintain cash in your hand, you maintain paper {dollars}, you maintain cash, and also you suppose it’s actual. You suppose that’s cash. That isn’t cash. That’s a factor that represents cash, greenback payments, cash, cash itself is, it’s an, it’s a system.
It’s a system we made up. It’s a system. Human beings invented as a means to assist us maintain observe of sources of all our stuff. You have a look at the purpose of a society and actually the purpose of a giant scale society is to get a gaggle of individuals collectively to mix their efforts and their sources to care for one another. The way in which as societies acquired a lot bigger and bigger, they discovered an environment friendly means to try this. And it was principally to have every thing represented by cash. After which in case you have cash, you could have a declare on the group’s sources. And what has occurred during the last 5,000 years or so is that, that we’ve got mythologized cash into this actual factor. And we’ve got satisfied ourselves, we’ve got hypnotized ourselves into believing that it’s a actual factor to the purpose the place the pursuit of it by itself has taken over most of what we consider as the purpose of economics in society. However it’s not an actual factor. It’s not a factor that exists by itself. It’s a factor that we created as a system that we created. And it has turn into for us a perception system.
Barry Ritholtz: So I wanna stick with that. ’trigger it’s fascinating within the e-book you write, cash isn’t actual, it has no goal existence of its personal. Clarify how cash is absolutely simply this agreed upon collective system that everyone accepts, regardless that it’s an summary idea that’s created by folks. Proper.
Paul Vigna: And look, the entire level of the e-book is that, not the entire level, however a principal level of the e-book is that cash is a product of faith. So I’ll, I’ll clarify it by way of that.
Barry Ritholtz: Say that once more. Cash is a product of faith.
Paul Vigna: Cash is a product of faith. And I’ll ex i’ll, I’ll clarify it by way of that. ’trigger that’s how this all turns into very germane. When cash first seems within the historic report, it’s in these historical Mesopotamian temples. Temple officers developed cash. They developed cash and writing truly as a technique to maintain observe of the temple’s possessions. And that’s the place it begins. And what emerged from that, the conclusion of that truly was that this was an extremely environment friendly system. Cash is definitely a, a extremely good product. Should you consider phrases of issues we’ve invented over our historical past. We didn’t invent hearth, however you understand how to make use of hearth, the wheel, bridges, boats, something. I might sit right here all day and do it proper. Cash is a type of issues we invented.
Cash was an extremely environment friendly technique to maintain observe of sources.
And what I discover fascinating is that as quickly as cash emerges, that’s whenever you begin to see what we actually consider as, as fashionable quote unquote human beings. Society takes off. It thrives as a result of cash is a invaluable product. It’s a helpful product. The issue has turn into that cash is such a great product that we’ve began to consider it on it as this factor by itself with its personal values and its personal existence. And lots of that’s tied up in our beliefs in faith. ’trigger as I stated, extra of its historical past, was it straight a product of faith than it was an unbiased factor that existed by itself. So our beliefs in faith, in gods, and in, in supernatural beings that management what we do and the way we dwell is tied up very, very intently with how we really feel about cash.
Barry Ritholtz: Let me stick with the idea of Mesopotamia. You write a few metropolis there’s 50,000 plus folks residing throughout the confines of this walled metropolis with tens of hundreds extra working within the discipline, working within the farms and suburbs. However what’s fascinating in regards to the description of the ity is the only largest constructing within the metropolis and maybe on the earth is the temple, which will be seen for miles and miles round, even from outdoors of the partitions of the town.
The primary writing is preserving observe of right here’s how a lot barley has come into the temple; Right here’s how a lot folks ha owe on this. Right here’s how we create a system of property and liabilities of credit score and debt.
All of it stems from the truth that your complete metropolis was pushed by faith. Plus folks needed to work to outlive. And the powers that be needed to give you a strategy of preserving observe of all this.
Is that the genesis of the shut relationship between cash and faith or is it one thing else?
Paul Vigna: It’s that precisely. And, and what I attempted to do in speaking about Europe was evaluate it to a contemporary metropolis, NY city. That’s what Europe was like again 5,000 years in the past is that this nice me, cosmopolitan, metropolitan metropolis. And also you’re proper, the temple was the biggest, the the, this complete metropolis actually revolved across the temple.
What’s essential after we speak about fashionable and historical cities is, is to understand there have been lots of issues that had been related, however there was one factor that was massively completely different. And it’s that the town revolved across the temple in these historical societies. And I discovered this very fascinating myself in these historical societies, your complete level of life truly was geared round one aim. And that aim was to please the gods. Individuals in these cities believed that the gods, a number of gods had been actual.
They existed they usually managed every thing. And whether or not you lived or died or how properly you lived after which died and the place you went after you died, all of that was decided by these gods. And also you needed to please the gods. There was no separation of church and state. The church was the state and the state’s whole existence was constructed round attempting to please these gods.
And that framework is what cash emerges from. And, and, and that framework I feel is in extremely essential to our understanding of how we really feel about cash in the present day. Wealth was seen as an indication of the God’s favor. If the God preferred the town, if the God preferred the ruler, if the God preferred the folks, they flourished. They’d wealth, cash was a illustration of that. So cash was a illustration of the God’s favor and also you needed extra of it, after all. I actually suppose that colours so much about what we take into consideration cash in the present day and the way we really feel about it. However it’s one thing that has simply been sort of buried in our collective unconscious and we don’t, we simply don’t see it.
Barry Ritholtz: Let’s speak about confidence and religion, which you emphasize all through the e-book. What position did belief play in establishments, be they authorities or banks and even numerous religions in shaping the general public’s perception about cash over time?
Paul Vigna: Belief is a big a part of how we worth cash. I’ll offer you a great instance of this: 1933, the Nice Melancholy america is in simply the worst financial form it’s ever been in. The system has largely failed; the banking system has collapsed; the federal government is, is barely working. And the federal government again then was not almost as giant as it’s now. It didn’t have as a lot of a direct influence in folks’s lives. In giant components of the nation, the federal government simply wasn’t there. And I feel there have been actual fears that your complete American experiment was going to break down over what had occurred in 1929 and the years after.
So FDR is available in, he will get elected, he begins doing — it’s, it’s a fairly fascinating factor on the time — he makes use of a contemporary expertise known as radio. He does these hearth chats, he simply talks into the radio and he explains issues to folks
They had been tremendously profitable. They actually labored. What’s the primary hearth chat about cash and banking? FDR the president will get on the radio and simply explains to folks how the banking system works, how cash works, what they plan to do, the way it’s gonna work.
And what he says to them is, he says, you must have religion, you must have perception within the banks, within the cash and all this stuff. And collectively, if all of us have religion, we’ll succeed. It’s wonderful to suppose that religion and and belief had been the issues he was actually speaking about. However in the event you, in the event you flip it round and look each single time you could have considered one of these incidents the place a forex fails and a authorities fails and you’ve got hyperinflation and every thing falls aside, the widespread denominator in all these examples, folks lose religion within the cash.
Which if you concentrate on what I used to be simply saying is sort of bizarre. Why ought to religion in cash matter in any respect if cash was actual? If cash had its personal existence, if the intrinsic worth of a greenback invoice was one thing that was tangible, for example, a tree has intrinsic worth, copper oil, commodity, all this stuff have intrinsic values, intrinsic makes use of – they’re actual. Your religion in them doesn’t matter one bit. Whether or not or not you imagine in copper, copper continues to be there and every thing you should utilize it for continues to be there.
Cash is completely different. Should you don’t place confidence in cash. Take a look at Zimbabwe, YMR, Germany, Argentina, all these examples. Should you don’t place confidence in cash, cash is ineffective. Why? Why ought to religion matter?
And the reason being as a result of cash isn’t actual and cash is simply the system we agreed upon. So long as folks agree to make use of the system, the system works. As quickly as folks cease believing within the worth of the system, they mistrust it, it collapses. That’s the core, core a part of every thing I’m speaking about.
Barry Ritholtz: So that you talked about within the e-book that one of many first hearth chats that FDR did over the radio was to debate the quote, lack of confidence within the soundness of banks and his plan to revive religion, to revive confidence, together with issues just like the creation of the Securities and Trade Fee so we don’t have issues on Wall Road and the Federal Deposit Insurance coverage company, so we don’t have these numerous runs on banks and on and on the record goes.
All of this sounds prefer it was simply an try and shore up the assumption system, the religion within the banking system. Is that what you’re saying?
Paul Vigna: Completely. That’s what it was. I’m not, I’m not accusing FDR of being underhanded, however by no means he was being a little bit underhanded. He was attempting to hypnotize folks into believing in cash once more in US {dollars} and utilizing them. And he needed to go on the radio and he needed to speak to them and he was an extremely persuasive speaker.
He used that as a instrument. All of the stuff you’re speaking about, the regulatory constructions he put in, these had been instruments to persuade those who these property that they’d beforehand believed in and didn’t anymore imagine in nonetheless had some sort of basic worth that could possibly be helpful to society.
Barry Ritholtz: One of many issues FDR did was take us off the gold normal and gold had lengthy been considered if not cash, properly actually cash. Like how did the removing of america Treasury Division in Central Financial institution from a gold normal influence our idea of cash?
Paul Vigna: Gold had been used and for, you understand, everybody is aware of gold has been used all through historical past as cash, however gold isn’t truly cash, gold is a illustration of cash. Something generally is a illustration of cash, gold greenback payments, cash, calorie shells, digits, crypto, Bitcoin, you understand, I imply you’ll be able to have a, a digital ledger that represents cash. All of these issues can be utilized as cash. None of them are cash. Cash is the system.
Within the (Thirties) thirties you could have the gold normal, the financial system begins collapsing, folks begin hoarding gold. There’s now not sufficient circulating forex for the federal government and for FDR to do something that he needs to do. So he has to persuade folks to place confidence in the system. And what he does is, you’ll be able to see this, he maneuvers folks over to believing within the system and he maneuvers them away from the religion in gold.
That isn’t what issues. What issues is the soundness of the banks. What issues is the soundness of the federal government imagine in these issues, believe, place confidence in all these issues. And when he did that, as soon as he did that, he acquired folks sort of believing once more, then he went and removed the gold normal.
Barry Ritholtz: Is cash a retailer of worth or is it a medium of change?
Paul Vigna: Cash is each of these issues. Cash is a retailer of worth. It’s a medium of change. It’s a unit of account. Something can actually be a retailer of worth. Most of what you understand, the markets commerce in are shops of worth. Something can actually be a unit of account. It simply so occurs that it’s {dollars}. However any forex will work simply as properly so long as the people who find themselves utilizing all of it agree upon it. And all of them can work as a method of change. Something can work as a method of change, barter can work as a method of change. These are simply features. These usually are not the factor itself. The factor itself is nothing greater than a shared collective perception on this system.
Barry Ritholtz: guess cash is a collective delusion. It’s an summary factor that will not exist with out human beings, in contrast to bushes or copper or gold for that matter. However it’s a part of a collective system of perception. It depends on confidence, it depends on religion. If the system is doubted, it begins to creak and it begins to crack. And we find yourself with circumstances just like the Weymar Republic or Zimbabwe, which is why it’s so essential for a society to take care of a perception that their techniques, and this consists of banks, debt and credit score, our sound and we’ll proceed to work.
I’m Barry Ritholtz. That is Bloomberg’s on the Cash.
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